Author Topic: Avoiding War-Draft  (Read 153 times)

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Avoiding War-Draft
« on: April 10, 2013, 08:15:17 pm »
Hey y'all i'm back!  ;D
I wanted to bring up a quick subject from the Avoiding War discussion from the CCC last week.
It's from paragraph 2310: "Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense."
So, that being said, does the government have a right to draft soldiers (i.e. WWI + WWII et all) for a war overseas, assuming the war is a just one? What about if it is not?
And do the "obligations necessary for national defense" apply to all citizens, male and female, and old and young? This paragraph seems very vague to me.
 ???
 :-*
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2013, 12:53:19 pm »
Hey y'all i'm back!  ;D
I wanted to bring up a quick subject from the Avoiding War discussion from the CCC last week.
It's from paragraph 2310: "Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense."
So, that being said, does the government have a right to draft soldiers (i.e. WWI + WWII et all) for a war overseas, assuming the war is a just one? What about if it is not?
And do the "obligations necessary for national defense" apply to all citizens, male and female, and old and young? This paragraph seems very vague to me.
 ???
 :-*

What does the "...in this case," refer to?
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 05:51:09 pm »
Basically the just-war scenario. The bottom of 2309 (clauses for a just war) finishes: "The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." Then it hits you with the 'draft' paragraph.

But 2309 brings up another point that I hadn't realized: we are obliged to listen to the "prudential  judgment" of those in authority working for the common good. If those in authority are not "prudential" and are not working for "the common good" (cough like right now Obama cough) could we in good conscience refuse to obey impositions of 'necessary obligations'?

Thoughts? Comments?
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 09:52:58 pm »
In the event that a draft is called for some reason, I'm sure we will receive instruction from the bishops as to whether or not the war is licit. 

If the bishops decide it's an immoral war, then in order to be exempt I believe we are allowed to claim "Conscientious Objector" status.

Otherwise, I suppose there is no reason why you couldn't accept being drafted to fight in a just war. 

In our country, the draft is only for men.  I think the Catechism leaves it up to the state to decide who the draft applies to, and who is required to observe the: "...obligations necessary for national defense."

However, considering the people twits in the current administration zoo, I'm sure they could "justify" any possible war they get into.  As I said, I think we would need to see what the bishops say.

I hope this helps in some way.  :)
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 04:33:02 pm »
Well, technically, the Draft was discontinued in 1973, so no one can constitutionally be drafted today (so far).
And because women are now allowed in combat zones, I hesitate to say that only men would be drafted if the law was repealed for some reason.
I was speaking in hypotheticals.
But I do agree that it seems the Catechism leaves the exact obligations up to the state.
However, I don't think it is a case of "if the bishops decide" if it's a just war or not. If the Catechism states under no uncertain terms the doctrine of the just war, we don't need to be told if it is one or not if we know the facts; we can decide for ourselves.
I don't know if that's wrong or anything; that's just how I see it.  :)
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 05:14:54 pm »
The problem with that is that every Catholic will have a different opinion, everyone will interpret the situation differently.  Like the bible!  You see where that got us...  >:(

That's why I think the laity may require some guidance from the bishops.
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 09:40:55 pm »
The Bible is a whole 'nother story.
CCC gives us four clear guidelines for a just war. They either apply or do not apply.
We can sit back and ask whether any war (Rev. War, Civil War, WWI, WWII, etc) was just, and by the guidelines decide 'yes' or 'no'. We do not need to go to a bishop today and ask "Was the Revolutionary War a just war?" We have reviewed the incidents leading up to war and have reached a conclusion based on what the Church teaches. It is not a matter of 'opinion'.
If, as you say, we Catholics need to be told if it is or not, this would be a matter for the Pope. Bishops are fallible. (that's why the Bible can only be interpreted clearly and correctly by the infallibility of the Pope).
Don't think that I diss the Bishops' authority or anything...it's not like that. I just think that when we are given clear standards and are well-informed of the situation, we do not need a bishopric having the ultimate say. With all due respect.  ::)
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 10:05:42 pm »
You're right, the French and German bishops supported their respective states during WWI, and I don't think they could both be right! XD

I see what you're saying, and I do think that given all the information, we could come to a conclusion on our own.  I just feel like we should see what our hierarchy says before we lock in our decision.
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2013, 10:07:13 pm »
Yes, I would agree. We should of course see what the Church says on the object, seeing as how we're following the CCC in the first place, but through the Pope, not just individual bishops.  ;)
Sorry if I've been a bit brusque in this conversation!
P.S. Nice seeing you at the French Food Festival! Did you have a good time?
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2013, 10:13:11 pm »
Well obviously all the American bishops would release a joint statement on the matter.

And a war that warrants a draft these days would, in all likelihood, draw commentary from pope Francis.

Yeah you were just a bit rough, but that's alright.

The F.F.F. was really fun, I think I saw you there.  The food was exceptional!  ;D

Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2013, 10:58:20 pm »
Again, I apologize! I have a tendency to throw down on people.  :-\
Sorry!
You're right...I doubt that a draft will be unleashed on the people of America anytime soon, but if it is, there will definitely be Church authority guiding the way.  :)
And yeah, Chef Paul really knows how to cook! Gotta hand it to 'im.
Nota Bena for the Chef: C'est tres bon, Monsieur! J'aime votre pain; il est plus chaud! <3
Best I could think of.  :D

"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2013, 03:01:11 pm »
"It's very good, sir!  I love your bread; it's very hot!"  ;D

Ton français, c'est bon.  Est-ce que tu l'étudies?

Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2013, 07:38:59 pm »
Merci! J'étudies à travers Rosetta Stone; c'est mon 4ème année. Et toi, est-ce que tu étudies à travers?
(Je suis desolée, mais mon Francais est n'est pas trés bien!)  ::)
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2013, 09:19:14 pm »
I don't want to abuse this topic with french talk, as it is about just war after all :-X.  I'll send you a private message. D'accord?


Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it.  -Pope John Paul II

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Re: Avoiding War-Draft
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2013, 11:10:57 pm »
Sounds good.  ;)
You can email me if you'd like at kass.williams0927@verizon.net, or just another board. Up to you.
It is my goal to speak fluent French! I'm not nearly that good yet, but getting there... :P
How long have you studied it?
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-Capt. John Parker
Revolutionary War Patriot

"We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."
-Confederate Soldier
American Patriot